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© Oaktree Capital Management, L.P.
All Rights ReservedMemo to: Oaktree Clients
From: Howard Marks
Re: Us and Them
As a kid, I â and probably you â viewed the world in simple terms. There were good guys and
bad guys. Americans and commies. Cops and r obbers. Settlers and redcoats. The Dodgers I
cheered for and the Yankees who always won. Over time my view of the investment
community has settled into an equally clear distinction: us and them.
Youâve heard a lot from me about the differe nce between the âI knowâ school and the âI donât
knowâ school, concepts I introduced in âWha tâs It All About, Alpha?â (July 2001) and
elaborated on in âThe Realistâs Creedâ (May 2002) . In the last few years it has become clear to
me that âweâ donât differ from âthemâ just in terms of how much we think we know about the
future, but in many other ways as well.
UDo You Know or Donât You?
Most of the investors Iâve met over the years have belonged to the âI knowâ school. This was
particularly true in 1968-78, when I analy zed equities, and even in 1978-95, when I had
switched to non-mainstream invest ments but still worked at equity-centric money management
firms.
Itâs easy to identify member s of the âI knowâ school:
ï· They think knowledge of the future directi on of economies, interest rates, markets and
widely followed mainstream stocks is essential for investment success.
ï· Theyâre confident it can be achieved.
ï· They know they can do it.
ï· Theyâre aware that lots of other people are trying to do it too, but they figure either (a)
everyone can be successful at the same time, or (b) only a few can be, but theyâre among
them.
ï· Theyâre comfortable investing based on their opinions regarding the future.
ï· Theyâre also glad to share th eir views with others, even t hough correct forecasts should be
of such great value that no one would give them away gratis.
ï· They rarely look back to rigorously assess their record as forecasters.
âConfidentâ is the key word for describing members of this school. For the âI donât knowâ school, on the other hand, the word â especially when dealing with th e macro-future â is
âguarded.â Its adherents generally believe you canât know the future; you donât have to
know the future; and the proper goal is to do the best possible job of investing in the
absence of that knowledge.
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UThe Benefits of Membership
As a member of the âI knowâ school, you get to opine on the future (and maybe have people
take notes). You may be sought out for your opi nions and considered a de sirable dinner guest
. . . especially when the stock marketâs going up. Join the âI donât knowâ school a nd the results are more mixed. Youâll soon tire of saying âI
donât knowâ to friends and strangers alike. After a while, even relatives will stop asking where you think the marketâs going. Youâll never ge t to enjoy that 1-in -1,000 moment when your
forecast comes true and the Wall Street Journal runs your picture. On the other hand, youâll be
spared all those times when forecasts miss the ma rk, as well as the losses that can result from
investing based on over-rated knowledge of the future. But how do you think it feels to have
prospective clients ask about your investment outlook and have to say, âI have no ideaâ?
For me, the bottom line on which school is best comes from the late Stanford behaviorist, Amos Tversky: âItâs frightening to think that you might not know something, but more
frightening to think that, by and large, the world is run by people who have faith that they know exactly whatâs going on.â
0BUâA group of related or coincident things, events, actions, etc.â
Random Houseâs secondary definition for the wo rd âsyndrome,â shown above, suggests a set of
elements that can be viewed separately but take on greater meaning when considered together.
And the more I think about it, the more I see su ch a pattern in the contrasting styles of
investment industry participants.
Investors donât just differ in regard to thei r views on foreknowledge, but in terms of a large
number of elements. And the pattern among those elements seems to be consistent â correlated â not random. Ask yourself, for example, whethe r the âI donât knowâ sch ool is evenly divided
between bulls and bears. Maybe, but in my experience, members of the âI donât knowâ school
tend to trust less in the market than those of the âI knowâ school. Thatâs an example of the
pattern, or syndrome, that I think investors tend to demonstrate in many regards.
In my memo âReturns and How They Get That Wayâ (November 2002), I gave examples from
a brilliant dichotomization propounded by Ni cholas Taleeb. His book, âFooled By
Randomness,â has as its theme the pervasive role of luck in investi ng and the tendency of
people to overlook its effect. He provides a ta ble that shows a number of things in the first
column that can easily be mistaken for things in the second column.
Luck Skill Randomness Determinism Probability Certainty Belief, conjecture Knowledge, certitude Theory Reality Anecdote, coincidence Causality, law Survivorship bias Market outperformance Lucky idiot Skilled investor
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My point here, and my reason for reproducing part of Taleebâs table, is my belief that there are
people who see the things on the left, and there are people who see the things on the right,
but few who see some of each. Some people think their ability to infer causality and analyze
data makes them skilled investors capable of producing consistent outperformance. Others
understand that luck plays a big part; that a lot of apparent causality is really coincidence; and
that the person crowned the most skilled investor in a given year might be nothing more than a
âlucky idiot.â Very few people mix aspects from both columns.
I can think of many qualities th at seem to go together to define one of the two main types
of investor but not the other. Iâll discuss them below and at tribute them to either the
âOaktree-styleâ investors with whom I tend to asso ciate â âusâ â or the other sort of investor â
âthem.â
1BUPersonality Type
It would be great to either be middle-of-the-road and dispassionate all the time or, better yet,
bullish or bearish at just the right time. But few people can achieve either of those ideals. Most
investors are congenitally either bullish or b earish, and Iâve never s een anyone capable of
flipping in an adroit and timely manner from one to the other. For most of us, itâs either bullish
most of the time or bearish most of the time â right or wrong. For many of the outstanding investors Iâve come across, itâs the latter. And I shouldnât say
bearish â Iâve just used that word as shortha nd for a number of others. But the âus-styleâ
investor tends to be cautious and defensive, while the âthey-styleâ i nvestor tends to be
optimistic, confident and aggressive.
And the investors I like most are patient. B ecause they know they canât be right every time,
their real concern is with the long run. On the other hand, the âI knowâ investor feels he has a
good handle on what lies ahead and thus plans to do an above-average job every year â an
admirable goal, perhaps, but I donât think highly achievable.
2BUHunt for Upside or Avoid Downside?
One of the most significant ways in which these di fferences manifest themselves is in terms of
attitude toward risk. If youâre confident th at you know what the future holds, risk isnât
frightening. But if youâre convi nced that you donât have that good a handle on the future, itâs
hard to be very cocky. Our kind of investor is preoccupi ed by risk, whereas I think the ot her is often oblivious to it.
Our kind worries about what can go wrong, while the other revels in what might go right. Ours
tries to avoid mistakes, and the other concentrates on finding winners. Ours obsesses about
the losers he might buy or hold, while the ot her dwells on the opportunities he might miss.
In short, itâs offense versus defense.
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3BUOther Aspects of Investment Style
The optimist tends more often than not to be a growth investor; heâs confident that above-average growth can be perpetuated and that he can identify the companies thatâll do so. The
more cautious investor looks for value â for tangib le attributes that can be counted on for price
support even if confidence in the company proves to be unwarranted. Our school of investing puts gr eat emphasis on being a contrari an. If you want to buy
something of solid value, and you want to buy it for less than itâs worth, youâll have a better
chance if you look among assets, companies and markets that are out of favor. Thus weâre
happiest when weâre not part of the herd; we prefer to watch the herdâs extreme boom-bust
behavior and profit from its mistakes. Most othe r investors seem to be happy when theyâre part
of the herd and following the trend. Our kind of investor likes to average down. He holds a firm view of his securitiesâ value and
wants to increase his holdings at lower prices. T hus he likes to see pric es decline (although heâs
not cocky enough to completely dismiss the possibility that the mark etâs right rather than him).
The trend follower wants to see appreciation and is disheartened by initial declines. In fact, I
think he prefers to average up as a ppreciation validates his thesis.
Certain that his forecasts are right and his portfolio is properly positioned, the âI knowâ investor wants to let his profits ride. The âI donât knowâ investor is pa infully aware of how much he
doesnât know; how much of his performance is beyond his control; that good fortune may have
contributed to his results to date ; and that events can easily turn against him. Thus heâs happy
taking profits and banking some of his gains. If appreciation occurs beyo nd his expectations, it
makes him stop and think . . . and maybe sell, not just celebrate.
The âweâ investor is comfortable holding cash when he canât find attractive investments. At the
present time, a number of the investors I most respect are holding or returning significant
amounts of cash, or closing their funds. The confid ent âthemâ investor is pained by cash â he
thinks he always should be ab le to find something worth buying. And he tends to be more
relative-return oriented, and thus worried that an index or competitor might beat him if he isnât
fully invested. I see an extreme dichotomy in the fact that th e âusâ investor worries about losing money, while
the other worries about underperforming. (I canât claim to be 100% the former, because I â and most of Oaktreeâs clients â thi nk that in the long run, the best manager is the one who beats the
others. Thatâs something thatâs hard to argue with. But my desire for relative performance
doesnât make me comfortable with losses.) Lastly, because the âI donât knowâ investor is highly conscious of his limitations, he is likely to
aggressively limit his assets under management. Most of the âI knowâ investors, who tend to
work in the more liquid mainstream markets, ne ver met a dollar of AUM they didnât like â or
didnât feel they could ac hieve great things with.
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UAttitudes Toward the Market
The actions of âtheyâ investor s are often driven by their vi ews regarding the outlook for the
market. They invest more aggressively when the outlookâs positive than they do when itâs negative (although, as I said before, theyâre usuall y positive). âWeâ inve stors tend to invest
from the bottom up, primarily basing investment decisions on whether attractive individual
investment opportunities are available. In fact, Iâm often struck by the fact that âthe yâ are preoccupied with studying and assessing the
behavior of âthe marketâ â which collectively means study ing themselves. My favorite
investors â both inside and outside Oaktree â spend their time almost exclusively looking into
individual companies and their securities. One of the greatest dichotomies is that âtheyâ impute intelligence to the market while âweâ are
highly skeptical of it. Trillions of dollars were lost after 1998-99 because the mass of investors
hadnât sufficiently questioned the valuations of te ch stocks. Theyâd been told, âThe marketâs
efficientâ and assumed that if a stock was selling at a price, that meant the price was justified.
The investors I respect feel the marketâs of ten wrong â either underpricing or overpricing
securities â and more than anything else, they look for opportunities to profit from those
errors. In their view, as Dickens said about the law, âthe marketâs an ass.â
4BUSo Where Do We Stand Today?
The market is a big arena where optimists and pessimists engage in a tug of war. When
optimism is rising relative to pessimism, meani ng more money wants to get put to work than
wants to exit, prices rise (and vice versa). The market has been going roughly sideways for the
last few months, meaning the two camps are in rough balance. But that doesnât mean theyâre
not both out there.
Everyone had a great year in 2003, and âtheyâ seem to think itâs going to continue. Theyâre cheered by signs of economic recovery, corporat e profit gains and job growth. âWe,â on the
other hand, worry about the things that could result in disappointment, like the lackluster
economic and employment gains, and the trad e and budget deficits. We also worry about
structural issues, such as the USâs reliance on foreign capital, the questionable outlook for the
dollar, and the consumerâs high level of indebted ness and low level of savings. Lastly, we feel
the possibility of domestic terrorism hangs out there like a sword of Damocles.
A particularly striking difference can be s een in current attitudes toward interest rates.
Rates do a great deal to influence the vitality of the economy and the price and relative
attractiveness of market sectors. Todayâs lo w rates encourage growth and borrowing. They
also reduce the competition to stocks posed by bonds and money market securities. Finally, since interest rates are used in present value calculations to discount future cash flows, lower
interest rates result in higher valuations for all assets. Obviously, then, todayâs record low rates go a long way to expl aining whatâs going on in the
investment world. With money market securi ties yielding 1% and Trea sury notes at 3-4%,
yields of 6-8% on high yield bonds look attractive; market-neu tral hedge funds look like a
bonanza at 9-11%; and expectati ons of 15-20% are enough to attr act money to private equity
© Oaktree Capital Management, L.P.
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(rather than the old 25-3 0%). Just as importantly, low interest rates lower the hurdle return for
equities and justify p/e ratios in the high 20s.
What sums it up is the line that âstock s arenât overpriced give n the current level of
interest rates.â âTheyâ derive comfort from the fact th at todayâs valuations are consistent with
todayâs rates, while âweâ worry about the impact on valuations that a rise in rates would have.
Rates canât go down all that much, but th ereâs plenty of room for them to go up . (I still
have the framed notice from 1980 telling me that the rate on my bank loan had reached 22Œ%!)
That tells me that p/e ratios canât rationally go up much more but thereâs plenty of room
for them to go down. And if we ignore the threat of a ra te rise and merely assume that rates
will hold steady, the resulting return on the averag e stock would be just in line with normal
profits growth in mid-single digits. So the optimist is cheered by the low rates (and their stimulative power), and the pessimist is
concerned about the risk imp licit in a possible rate rise. Or, as it seems to me, âweâ worry
about valuations and âtheyâ feel comfortab le on the subject . . . as usual.
5BUHow About an Example
Rather than hold up my Oaktree colleagues as exem plars of astute âus-styleâ investors (which I
think they are), Iâd like to propos e an unnamed investor for your c onsideration. Iâll tick off his
credentials for inclusion (as I see them) and thro w in a few quotes from his recent writings.
ï· He never bases his investment actions on forecas ts for the economy or market. â. . . the
cemetery for seers has a huge section set aside for macro forecasters. We have in fact made
few macro forecasts . . , and we have seldom seen others make them with sustained
success.â
ï· Rather, his actions are strictly determined by the availability of attractive investment
opportunities. âUnder any market or economic conditions, we will be happy to buy
businesses that meet our standards.â
ï· Heâs a solid investor in valu e â be it derived from current cash flow, unique market position
or special human resources.
ï· Because of his risk awareness and desire to avoid losers, he always insists on a generous
âmargin of safety.â
ï· He is absolutely unconcerned if an index or competitor outperforms him for a year or two,
but he insists on avoiding losses. Losing less than his competitor s is not his definition of
success.
ï· When attractive investment opportun ities are few, heâs willing to stand at the plate with the
bat on his shoulder â something he says heâs do ing a lot of nowadays. In 2003, that caused
his holdings of cash to triple. âOur capital is underutilized no w . . . . Itâs a painful
condition to be in â but not as painful as doing something stupid.â
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ï· He seems happiest when betting against the herd . For example, on the subject of distressed
bonds, he says âyesterdayâs weedsâ (which yielded 30-50% in 2002), are being priced as
âtodayâs flowersâ (and thus yiel ding 4-6%). Heâs written me that he âliked them better
when they were weeds.â
ï· Certainly heâs a patient long- term investor (and, in fact, Unot U much of a profit taker; he
recently expressed some regret about ha ving not sold during The Great Bubble).
ï· He is very conscious of the effect of increas ed capital on investment returns. âWhen [a
manager] tells you that increased funds wonât hurt his investment performance, step back:
His nose is about to grow.â
There are lots of ways to skin the cat, and certainly there are successful investors among
âthem.â But the characteristics enumerated above have provided the foundation for
Warren Buffettâs incredible record, and th at makes them good enough for me.
* * *
To help you see the picture Iâm suggesting and evaluate the investors you come across, Iâve
prepared the quick-and-dirty checklist that a ppears on the following page. Few people will hit
every point on the head, but I thi nk youâll recognize in the list on the left a lot of the âtheyâ
school investors you know, and on the right, hopefully, a few from the âusâ school. Each year
â especially in good times â the headlines will go to those on the left who guess correctly. But in the long run I think itâs people on the right whoâll be celebrated most.
In todayâs trend toward hedge funds, I see a growing preference â whether conscious or unconscious â for âusâ investors over âthem .â Consistent, risk-c onscious, non-market-
based investing is enjoying great popularity right now. Iâve considered it the ticket for
almost three decades. And by the way, I have one last thing to say:
Uvive la difference!! U In order for us to be
contrarians, there has to be someone to be c ontrary to. If everyone invested our way, the
opportunities we prize would be few and far between. The best opportunities for investment
returns arenât created by companies, exchanges or paper securities; they result from the mistakes other investors make . Itâs Oaktreeâs job to take advantage of them.
May 7, 2004 P.s.: As I wrote this memo, one thing pained me, and I want to address it: I found myself
constantly writing âhe,â even though I absolutely do not think investing skill is gender-related.
Itâs just that I hate the thought of using âhe/sheâ each time. (My son Andrewâs school uses s/he.) And I find ungrammatical todayâs popular , gender-neutral formulation that âthe top-
performing investor finds that their gains come from hard workâ â a plural pronoun substituting
for a singular noun. So please bear with me; Iâm really an equal opportunity memo writer.
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UTHEM U UUS U
âI knowâ âI donât knowâ
Bullish by nature Bearish by nature A g g r e s s i v e D e f e n s i v e Confident Guarded Comfortable with risk Obsessed with risk What might go right? What might go wrong? Worried about winners missed Worried about losers bought Trend followers Contrarians Attracted to pretty flowers Glad to search among the weeds
Comfortable when part of the crowd Happy when apart from the crowd
Growth/momentum investors Value investors âGreat things cost a lotâ Insistent on buying cheap
B e l i e v e r s S k e p t i c s âWeâre in a new eraâ âTr ees donât grow to the skyâ
Cheered by appreciation Fri ghtened by excessive appreciation
Enjoy averaging up Enjoy averaging down âLet it rideâ Eager to take profits Relative return-oriented Absolute return-oriented Worried about underperforming Worried about losing money Pained by cash Comfortable with cash Confident in their powers Aware that much is beyond their control
Convinced that their good returns Highly conscious of the role
are fully deserved played by luck I m p a t i e n t P a t i e n t
Short term-fixated Long term-oriented
Never worried by large amounts Aware that itâs possible to have
of capital too much capital Engrossed in watching the market Devoted to watching companies
âThe marketâs efficientâ âThe marketâs an assâ
UEverythingâs okay: U UWorries abound: U
Economic recovery underway Movement of jobs overseas Corporate profit gains Gaping trade deficit Increases in productivity Growing budget deficit Continuing foreign investment Reliance on foreign capital
Ability of weak dollar to bolster exports Threat to value of the dollar Existence of job growth Halting nature of job growth
Optimism implied by willingness to borrow Consumersâ high debt/low savings
Strong military capability Risk of terrorism Low level of interest rates Risk of interest rate rise Todayâs security prices are justified Todayâs security prices are reliant
by low rates on rates staying low
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Legal Information and Disclosures
This memorandum expresses the views of the author as of the date indicated and such views are subject
to change without notice. Oaktree has no duty or ob ligation to update the information contained herein.
Further, Oaktree makes no representation, and it should not be assumed, that past investment performance is an indication of future results. More over, wherever there is th e potential for profit there
is also the possibility of loss. This memorandum is being made av ailable for educational purposes only and should not be used for any
other purpose. The information contained herein do es not constitute and should not be construed as an
offering of advisory services or an offer to sell or solicitation to buy any securities or related financial
instruments in any jurisdiction. Certain inform ation contained herein concerning economic trends and
performance is based on or derived from informatio n provided by independent third-party sources.
Oaktree Capital Management, L.P. (âOaktreeâ) believes that the sources from which such information has been obtained are reliable; however, it cannot g uarantee the accuracy of su ch information and has
not independently verified the accuracy or complete ness of such information or the assumptions on
which such information is based.
This memorandum, including the information cont ained herein, may not be copied, reproduced,
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